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Fresca
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Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: "Dominionism" Reply with quote

I know i brought this topic up on another recent post.

I'm not sure how familiar you are or arent with the concept. Here is an article / description of it as a political/theological movement in Christianity in the US
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Dominionism

Rather than get into my opinions of it and why right off the bat, I thought best to introduce it as a concept and let people mull it over a little and hopefully a good conversation will ensue.

I will say this much about it... it is very relavent to politics in the US right here and now. As a result i believe people should know of it and be informed.
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TheHoodedMan
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:18 am    Post subject: Re: "Dominionism" Reply with quote

Fresca wrote:
I know i brought this topic up on another recent post.

I'm not sure how familiar you are or arent with the concept. Here is an article / description of it as a political/theological movement in Christianity in the US
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Dominionism

Rather than get into my opinions of it and why right off the bat, I thought best to introduce it as a concept and let people mull it over a little and hopefully a good conversation will ensue.

I will say this much about it... it is very relavent to politics in the US right here and now. As a result i believe people should know of it and be informed.


If this were to happen, then anyone who was not "of the fold" would then be judged Heretical and promply dispatched for the good of society/

I have but scratched the surface here and will come back as this thread develops.

TFR
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Fresca
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well i'm in the mood so i guess I'll throw in my 2 bits

Quote:
The concept of Dominionism is based on the Bible's text in Genesis 1:26. Most Christians interpret this verse as meaning that God gave humankind dominion over the Earth. Many consider this a mandate for stewardship rather than the assertion of total control. A more assertive interpretation of this verse is seen as a command that Christians bring all societies, around the world, under the rule of the Word of God, as they understand it. As Sara Diamond explains, in this view, Christians see themselves as "mandated to gradually occupy all secular institutions until Christ returns."


Not only do i believe this is a dangerous movement but i believe it is contrary to Christian theology.

How is it contrary to Christian Theology ?
well..._most_ (as in every one that i have been to) Churches say something like "We believe in the New Testament, Jesus freed us from "the law"" Though the old testament is often read, it is done in the spirit of understanding the history of the religion. As far as any and all doctrine or theology is concerned it is the New Testament and only the New Testament that counts. Jesus himself is pretty clear on that (if you want passages, i can look them up). The bottom line here is that any Christian church basing their theology on the old testament is no longer "Christian". I am not saying people shouldnt read or study the OT, there is alot of value in it and insights to be gained. What I am saying is that there is no legitimate theological basis for it in a Christian church.

In order to fully understand this, you have to understand a certain mindset which is rather "all or nothing". I.e. Either you believe it to be the inspired word of God or you dont. You cant "pick and choose" a small section of the OT, use it as a theological justification and not for example follow Kosher dietary laws.

One must ask a Christian "Did Jesus free us from the law or didn't he ?" If he the answer is yes, then any OT justification is irrelevant.

I hope this made some sense

.... to be continued
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TheHoodedMan
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fresca wrote:
Well i'm in the mood so i guess I'll throw in my 2 bits

Quote:
The concept of Dominionism is based on the Bible's text in Genesis 1:26. Most Christians interpret this verse as meaning that God gave humankind dominion over the Earth. Many consider this a mandate for stewardship rather than the assertion of total control. A more assertive interpretation of this verse is seen as a command that Christians bring all societies, around the world, under the rule of the Word of God, as they understand it. As Sara Diamond explains, in this view, Christians see themselves as "mandated to gradually occupy all secular institutions until Christ returns."


Not only do i believe this is a dangerous movement but i believe it is contrary to Christian theology.

How is it contrary to Christian Theology ?
well..._most_ (as in every one that i have been to) Churches say something like "We believe in the New Testament, Jesus freed us from "the law"" Though the old testament is often read, it is done in the spirit of understanding the history of the religion. As far as any and all doctrine or theology is concerned it is the New Testament and only the New Testament that counts. Jesus himself is pretty clear on that (if you want passages, i can look them up). The bottom line here is that any Christian church basing their theology on the old testament is no longer "Christian". I am not saying people shouldnt read or study the OT, there is alot of value in it and insights to be gained. What I am saying is that there is no legitimate theological basis for it in a Christian church.

In order to fully understand this, you have to understand a certain mindset which is rather "all or nothing". I.e. Either you believe it to be the inspired word of God or you dont. You cant "pick and choose" a small section of the OT, use it as a theological justification and not for example follow Kosher dietary laws.

One must ask a Christian "Did Jesus free us from the law or didn't he ?" If he the answer is yes, then any OT justification is irrelevant.

I hope this made some sense

.... to be continued


I asked the same question on another Forum.

If Jesus repudiated the old ways how come you still want to live by them?

TFR
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Fresca
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Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheHoodedMan wrote:

I asked the same question on another Forum.

If Jesus repudiated the old ways how come you still want to live by them?

TFR


When you see it, understand, it's being used to promote an agenda (usually political). It's not legitimate theology, anyone who thinks it is is either lying or deluded
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Fresca
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm getting back to this thread.. in the meantime... chick this little baby out (*warning* this made me throw up a little in my mouth when i saw it)

Jesus Camp and George Bush
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2c7_1173547096

My Fave quote: "Do some warfare over him" Then she goes into some fake speaking in tongues
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Boogedybones
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw the whole Jesus Camp DVD awhile back and frankly it made me sick to my stomach. The tragedy of the developing minds of these little children being imprinted with such a strong ability to mindlessly hate was awful to watch. We've had Dominionism before, under the Church of Rome and there was much violence and bloodshed. I hope it never comes back. Did you see how they made those kids acknowledge that cutout of Bush as if it were real? Sick, sick, sick.
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train



Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fresca wrote:
I am not saying people shouldnt read or study the OT, there is alot of value in it and insights to be gained. What I am saying is that there is no legitimate theological basis for it in a Christian church.


No Christian theological basis in the OT? What about Isaiah's suffering servant?

Quote:
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
- Isaiah 53:5
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TheHoodedMan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

train wrote:
Fresca wrote:
I am not saying people shouldnt read or study the OT, there is alot of value in it and insights to be gained. What I am saying is that there is no legitimate theological basis for it in a Christian church.


No Christian theological basis in the OT? What about Isaiah's suffering servant?

Quote:
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
- Isaiah 53:5


Could you show how this relates in more detail to the original response?

Perhaps you could discuss how you see it fitting in instead of just posting a quotation and hoping everyone gets what you see it means.

TFR
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train



Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheHoodedMan wrote:
Could you show how this relates in more detail to the original response?

Perhaps you could discuss how you see it fitting in instead of just posting a quotation and hoping everyone gets what you see it means.

TFR


I don't understand what's confusing to you.

Fresca claimed (I thought) that there was no theological basis for Christianity in the OT and I provided a counterexample.

The obvious conclusion is that Christians have to take over the world and put everyone else under our thumb. Your tactic of asking obvious questions is a transparent attempt to prevent me from carrying out my part in the plot, but you'll have to do better than that!
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Boogedybones
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're joking right train? I was with you until you started the last paragraph. Are you truly a Christian? And involved in a plot? And TheHoodedMan is preventing your part in said plot with transparent attempts at stonewalling? You sound like someone who makes stuff up and then gets angry. Wink

Seriously, the Messiah is foreshadowed in the OT, I agree. I think some people were just wanting a fuller explanation. Smile
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train



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boogedybones wrote:
You're joking right train?


I realized that my posts didn't have anything to do with Dominionism, so I figured I'd better tie it in. Laughing

But yes, I am a Christian.
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Fresca
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hehe you guys all rock Smile

I just finished posting something on this thread : http://lehermitage.informe.com/viewtopic.php?t=24

that addresses (at least in part) the OT/NT statement I made on this thread previously.

BTW: thank you train for questioning my argument. I say this because I believe in intellectual integrity and if i cant defend my opinions / statements, then i must re-evaluate them.
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Fresca
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

train wrote:
Fresca claimed (I thought) that there was no theological basis for Christianity in the OT and I provided a counterexample.

The obvious conclusion is that Christians have to take over the world and put everyone else under our thumb. Your tactic of asking obvious questions is a transparent attempt to prevent me from carrying out my part in the plot, but you'll have to do better than that!


okie, I got it now. I think train has misunderstood what i'm trying to say.

Isaiah CH 53 - appears to be a foretelling of the coming of Christ.

Thats an awesome thing. Like i said earlier
Quote:
I am not saying people shouldnt read or study the OT, there is alot of value in it and insights to be gained.


More importantly it is something from the new testament that backs up something from the old testament.

okie now i'm going to try and illustrate the point i was trying to make:

example:
Adultery (dont do it) (commandment #7 if youre protestant, #6 if you're Catholic)

Jesus in the NT gave admonitions against adultery

Using this litmus test one can say... okie no problem we can use "adultery is a no-no" as a legitimate part of our church dogma. Now just to be clear the reason why it can be used if because it came from Jesus himself, the fact that it's also in the OT is great and awesome, but it is the word of Christ and not that of Moses (and even God in this case) that make it a part of Christianity.

While we are on the topic of the 10 commandments, I want to share something:

Mark 10:18-21 (King James Version) wrote:

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.


In line 19 I count 6 commandments - not 10

What about the other 4 ?

Well we need to look to the New Testament and ask:
Does Christ address the other 4 commandments in other places / ways ?
How are they addressed ?
It is Christ's treatment of the subject that dictates whether it is a part of Church theology / dogma, the OT is a great place for additional acknowledgement and history but to a christian it is not "the law"
_________________
And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit
- The Tick
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TheHoodedMan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

train wrote:
TheHoodedMan wrote:
Could you show how this relates in more detail to the original response?

Perhaps you could discuss how you see it fitting in instead of just posting a quotation and hoping everyone gets what you see it means.

TFR


I don't understand what's confusing to you.

Fresca claimed (I thought) that there was no theological basis for Christianity in the OT and I provided a counterexample.

The obvious conclusion is that Christians have to take over the world and put everyone else under our thumb. Your tactic of asking obvious questions is a transparent attempt to prevent me from carrying out my part in the plot, but you'll have to do better than that!


I ask anyone who posts Biblical quotes to discuss them to remove any chance of a reader from confusing what your intending.

That is all.

TFR
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